I'm a HCHS parent and have been receiving an onslaught of emails from various diversity groups mostly made up of students and teachers, as far as I can tell - and a handful of parents - pressuring the admin to get rid of the HCHS admissions test. I understand there are similar things happening and Stuy as well.
Thoughts? I would love to support greater diversity within the school, but just getting rid of the test seems like a terrible idea. As far as I can tell they are proposing a lottery entrance. Are these people really so naive to think that HCHS would be the same kind of school with lottery admissions? It kind of boggles my mind.
Agreed. I'm open to changes and improvements, but there is no thought process behind a lottery.
IME (and I have some real experience with this) teachers are often just as naive about these matters as their students.
If there is a lottery, then these school will no longer be specialized. I'm sure that's the mayor's goal.
Hunter doesn't fall under the same rules as the specialized schools, but there is a very vocal/active group that is pushing the same idea.
Yet another article pushing for getting rid of the Hunter test:https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/20/opinion/new-york-public-high-schools.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage
I honestly don't understand what these people are thinking. The only important thing is having racial representation, and academics no longer matter? I have no horse in this race but am befuddled at the logic.
I had the exact same thoughts about the NYT article. The schools that used screen will no longer be that strong, and you won't be able to make the families who can't get in go to an undesirable school anyway.
No . . what are you thinking? Most schools public/private do not use a SINGLE ENTRANCE exam for admissions. It's a moronic idea actually.
Most public and private high schools do not have 30k kids applying for 5k spots.
Grades, interviews (and recommendations) are FAR BETTER metrics to gauge academic success than a single test that students "over-prep" for. That's why students are protesting, BTW. They know it is all test prep.
@ Anonymous A few points here.
All "good" schools inflate grades wildly, because the teachers are terrified of pushy parents who protest every time Snowflake gets a B. If you make grades the primary criteria for entry, that will happen x100. Won't solve the problem. In fact it was the whole reason these tests were developed - to create an "objective" metric.
The idea that NYC public schools (and that includes Hunter!) have the resources to evaluate multiple criteria, and interview, 5000+ kids a year is ignoring some basic budgetary realities.
These kids are very idealistic and naive, and have no clue. I hope to hell that the HCHS administration doesn't pull a Dalton and give into their demands.
@anonymous I find it so ironic that the kids who already got in through an entrance exam and have such a strong peer group, now push for removing of the same screens which made their school great in the first place. Most of them probably want to write a college application essay about how they fought for de-segregation of their selective school, a change that would not affect them in any way.
@Anon Yup. Actually the kids quoted in the NY Times article came in through Hunter Elementary, meaning they have spent their entire educational lives in a carefully curated bubble of peers. And if anyone thinks they aren't using this for the purposes of their college app, I have a big bridge to sell you.
I am amazed that no one wants to talk about the biggest problem behind the school situation - that it's the elementary education that needs fixing and then the MS and HS will be better. Entrance exams are not the problem, but rather the fact that kids, whose parents are not involved or do not have the time and resources, fall terribly behind by the time MS comes around, that they cannot compete. Many do not know about the application process either. Bu thtey deserve equally good elementary schools. DOE simply does not know what to do besides cry Racism and blame white and Asian parents for everything. There are only 15% white kids and 28% above poverty line in the DOE system, it's impossible to spread out the well off and high-performing kids in a meaningful way. There has to be another way to improve ALL MS and HS.
I keep asking this question over and over again - why aren't we working to fix the elementary schools first? Every MS and HS would be better if ALL kids received a quality elementary school education and right now they aren't.
@Anonymous Harder issue to tackle and still not relevant to the "winner take all" exam.
@Anonymous But it is the source of the inequality they want to fight. And if there are more "good" MS and HS, the exam won't be so important. Instead, they pit parents against each other, saying how some hoard privilege and are racist, and if we only mix up the kids in schools, all will be good. If a child spend the first 7 years of their education in sub-par school, just going to a "good" MS or HS won't magically fill the gaps.
Poster above. Agree with this as well. Former NYC resident. Attended THHS. Admitted to Bronx Science. Had friends at all the specials. This was before the ravenous age of test prep. These schools were far more diverse with kids from so many different backgrounds, but all swimming in the same direction. All landed well.
What's THHS?
@anonymous https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Townsend_Harris_High_School
Townsend Harris HS.
The teachers at our ES fought and pleaded with the school board to change the school zone to include some local projects, because they wanted more diverse classes.
Two years after the change went into the effect, most of those same teachers had quit to go teach at whiter schools. Apparently diversity sounded really good, until they actually had to TEACH a bunch of kids who were out of control and couldn't sit through their woke lessons.
Wow. Racist much? I went to middle school with kids from the PJ's with excellent teachers. Noone quit. Some of the best instruction my entire academic career (I went to Columbia, FYI.). You're racist and don't know what you're talking about. Yes, it was a screened Middle School (no entrance exam) and 95% black.
^^ My point being. It can be done and has been done. Feel free to ask questions.
@Anonymous I'm just reporting what I observed. I was shocked to see these same teachers who fought for diversity, quitting a year later.
these people are morons. Get rid of the screening tests and the white flight of the 70s will happen again and with it the tax dollars. My dc is at Hunter but I’m getting sick of these absurd progressives.
You can screen without a "be all, end all" test.
Good luck doing that with no grades or state tests!
None of the dozens of emails I've seen from the various Hunter DEI groups has any meaningful suggestions for how to screen without testing. It's all drama and pointing fingers about racism without anything constructive behind it. Oh, and then there was a long memo claiming over and over "we're not suggesting we lower standards!" And you're going to do that HOW? No comment on that, of course.
This article makes me sad. I hope something can be worked out. I think it will. I know so many black and hispanic alum from these schools from "back in the day", and they're all amazing people. I hope there can be some middle ground because the current system is simply not fair.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/06/03/nyregion/nyc-public-schools-black-hispanic-students.html
It is so crystal clear from this article that the problem is NOT the test, but the lack of a pipeline. All the B/L grads quoted in the article who went to SHS, came out of selective programs in their home district. And those programs have been decimated.
@anonymous NP here and testing is what fucked up the pipeline. How many local G&T programs closed after Bloomberg put the G&T test in place? And now people who can afford $5k to send 4yos to test prep hoard all those spots.
@anonymous Except that no one seems to be doing anything about testing 4 year olds. That's fine, apparently. But testing 13 year olds is a problem.
Exactly. Gamed. Let's declare the obvious. No private school would use a single test as a method of admissions. I understand there are other variables considered (size, wealth, diversity goals), but it was NEVER done. There's a test, but not the sole metric.
Because private schools have tons and tons of $$$$$$ and a giant staff solely devoted to admissions! DUH.
@anonymous Well, that's the most idiotic argument I've heard yet. Continue a test that people game with $$ and that excludes most of the city because it's cheaper and more expedient!
Stop trolling. You all want these tests to continue precisely BECAUSE you know you can game them.
If they level the playing field, you lose your advantage. Period.
@anonymous Again, went to a SCREENED MS in NYC . . . it can be done. Not to the level of a private, but IT CAN BE DONE. Technology alone could cull all the top performing students from every school and narrow from there.
Don't they use a screened system for MS, then lottery?
No more screens for MS, per BDB and Carranza.
@anonymous You can look at D15 to see how this played out. Basis added a full class to accommodate the incoming 6th graders. A few small private schools popped up, started by enterprising parents. The religious schools saw interest they haven't in a while. Same for the Brooklyn privates. I know families how moved to D2. The charters had wait lists in the hundreds, and some of them were largely ignored up that point.
@Anon Yep--never hear of BUGS before that and suddenly people love it.
I've posted all over this thread. So, then parental demand should be to create a criteria that meets everyone's goals. I hear complaints about what the DOE is not doing. What are they doing? And how do you move the needle to get your needs met? In all, the test has to go. The fight needs to be around what replaces it.
I COMPLETELY disagree that the tests need to go. They are valid screens and they work. There is nothing inherently racist about testing teenagers, for heaven's sake. What kind of liberal BS are you swallowing?
What needs to change is the pipeline and preparation. And I have no problem with adding other metrics, that's fine. But the liberal daydream that if you just remove testing everything will be well, is Dalton level insanity.
@anonymous How can you say they are "valid screens" when there are 7 or 8 black kids that get in every year? I'm white, but that's just fucking impossible.
If the kids who get in get in because they spent a year prepping for this test, something is very wrong.
@anonymous The screens are valid because they find kids who will succeed at the school. I don't believe the narrative that the kids who get in only did so because they prepped. It's also because they went to academically strong middle schools. How does dropping the HCHS and SHSAT tests address the issue of crappy elementary and middle school education? I notice no one wants to answer that.
The narrative that kids succeed because they can afford to pay hundred/thousands of dollars to prep is one of the most overstated nonsense out there. Yes, some do, but the vast majority prep on their own through study guides, khan academies, schools, etc. It's not that hard to do so if the kid is willing to put in the effort, and they will score well if they are academically inclined to begin with. And if you really want it you truly don't need to have a lot of money to prep well.
This line of rationalizing test preps driving majority of SHS admits is bogus and should be seriously questioned.
@anon THANK YOU! And this is even more true for the Hunter test, which is far more difficult to prep for than the SHSAT.
And again: Having read through every single piece of literature from the Hunter groups, I have yet to see an actual proposal for admitting students. It's all drama and finger-pointing and not a drop of intelligence. I'd be impressed by actual plans that make sense and thoughtfully addresses some of the challenging issues. Pages and pages of "quotes" from the same four students about how oppressed they feel? Not so much.
They shouldn't have to. If they are THAT academically strong, they should be more than prepared with their existing education alone. The rampant prep underscores how the process is flawed
I don't care how much money people spent. The fact that they prep this much at all is a huge problem, IMO. The test measures the amount of prep, not the ability of the student.
And then people say that the solution is to offer more prep to the rest of the kids. If that much prep is needed, this test is not measuring what it should measure.
The effects of switching from the SHSAT to other criteria have been studied. The researchers looked at using various combinations of grades and state test scores as admissions criteria. None of the alternatives would have made any significant difference in the racial/ethnic composition of students admitted to SHS. The only alternative that would have made a difference is taking the top 10% of every middle school, regardless of student proficiency. The study is here: https://research.steinhardt.nyu.edu/scmsAdmin/media/users/sg158/PDFs/Pathways_to_elite_education/WorkingPaper_PathwaystoAnEliteEducation.pdf
Interesting. That is what DbD wanted to do. His proposal a few years ago was to take the top 7% from each middle school in the city for the specialized high schools. In typical DbD and Carranza fashion, the idea wasn't very fleshed out and didn't garner any support. Also, parents from middle schools like NEST, Lab, Anderson, etc had hissy fits.
The problem with this is that all middle schools need to be preparing their students. You end up with kids in the top 7% at under performing middle schools at high schools they aren't prepared for. This helps no one (not the students who would have been prepared nor the students who struggle and then potentially drop out). I am all for this idea if we take the time to invest in elementary and middle schools to ensure that the top 7% at every middle school is prepared. Lots of study's have shown that we would get a better ROI on our educational spending if we invest more in the early years.
@MidtownMom This study is the reason why BDB wanted the top 7%. There is no other way to get the demographics to change. Even holistic screening based on grades/tests/recs/portfolios/essays/interviews skews white (and reduces asian) per this study and you can see it in the NYC schools - see Beacon for example.
Implicit in all of this is implication that the other schools are crap. So what if the selective schools change their admissions methods? The kids that will get in are the kids that will succeed anyway and they will be creamed off of the other schools. I get so furious when people pretend like this would be true equity. Make it so that academically talented kids can thrive in any school. Otherwise it will be the best supported who benefit, whether the best supported in NYCHA or on the UES. GTFO diversity kid activists trying to put this on your resume to get into a similarly selective college.
Well the majority of the schools in NYC are in fact crap. So yes, I agree, if kids could get a decent education and have their academic needs met in accelerated manner, people wouldn't freak out about it. But its not the case, and there is no talk or plan of improving the crap schools.
True equity would be creating great schools for all kids. Impossible I know, but that would be true equity.
This is a daydream, but: I wish we could just ask kids if they would thrive at citywide/specialized school. The (not-unrelated!) precedent is the question "Are you a narcissist?" which diagnoses as many narcissists as any test: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2014/08/05/you-only-need-a-one-question-test-to-identify-a-narcissist/
If tons of kids say yes, well, make more good schools.
So here is a question. We should have some data. SHS Discovery went up to 13% of seats two years ago. This freshman class was at 20% of seats. How are the Discovery kids doing compared to the other admits, especially at Stuyvesant where there is a 90 point difference in the SHSAT score? Did it matter? Did they struggle and catch up / do well? These schools are brutal. Every year kids do transfer out as they decide its not for them.
@ Anonymous That's a very good question, and gets to the other issue that none of the quick-fix proponents like to discuss - how will these schools support a more diverse learning community?
I am a Hunter alum and when I attended ('80's) there was a Discovery-like program in place. I don't know how many kids entered via that criteria (I think they lowered the cut-off score on the exam for kids who lived in high poverty zip codes), but I do know that the majority of them wound up dropping out of Hunter - NOT because they were less intelligent than the regular-entry kids, but because the school didn't have good enough supports in place for kids who were coming from sub-par schools. So maybe the entry #'s for URM kids looked better than they do now, but did it really help them, in the end?