The other thread talks about various other related issues, so I thought it best to start a new thread about this specific question. What should replace the current format of G&T programs? DH was in an school-enrichment program and thinks it useless. It disrupted his relationships with his schoolmates and didn't offer much in terms of academics. My overall opinion is that providing advanced academic content is easy. Most gifted kids are motivated and in the internet era, opportunities are numerous. Bigger issues are developing work ethics and finding a peer group that gives a sense of belonging and validation.
I think in-school enrichment (eg. via pull-out for specific classes) is the way to go, but obviously as your DH's experience shows, it can be done well or badly. I agree that rather than academic content, a focus on challenging projects that develop work ethic/perseverance/resilience is important. (And I say that as someone who developed absolutely no work ethic in ES, and had to scramble to learn to actually apply myself when I tested into HCHS!)
I agree with the posters who were stating on the other thread(s) that it doesn't really need to be started in K (apart from the broader integration-related goals of inducing parents to send their kids to schools they wouldn't otherwise). 2nd or 3rd grade would make sense if it was just about offering these kids what they need.
Don't you get it. They will not replace it with anything. It is already almost November and they have ZERO plans for next year. The only think they can possibly do is abolish it, if we let them (so write to your elected official so they do not!).
Also, if they do abolish it they will likely add a once-per-week 30 min "enrichment" zoom class that will have 60 kids and one teacher and be completely useless. That will be your new G&T.
If you do not understand where Carranza stands on these issues, I have a bridge to sell you.
The focus right now should be to preserve what we already have.
I think expecting children of higher ability to find enrichment on the internet is specious. it's like telling someone it's OK they don't earn a living wage because they can always get a second job at night. If I send my kid to school for 30+ hours a week, he should get an appropriate education during that time. Being unusual doesn't mean he relinquishes that right.
I have what we believe is a truly "gifted" child. I take no credit for this--my DH happens to have a stratospheric IQ. It's also not a uniformly great thing--it comes with some real and difficult challenges. It's more like a form of SN than anything else.
But my son really benefits from accelerated education in a way he never did from the more progressive models we've tried in the past. He also aced the G &T test with no prep and when he was done, asked the administrator for more questions, because he said they were "fun".
There should be a place for kids like him in the public system.
The reality is that the public system is not meant for especially advanced cases. All they can do is advance him grade wise, which may not be great from a social-emotional perspective. He's an excellent candidate for a school like Hunter or Speyer, etc. Either that, or regular public school plus a ton of outside enrichment and development.
@Anonymous The public system is working exceptionally well for him at the moment, actually. He's at a citywide G&T, at the appropriate grade level, with an accelerated curriculum.
^also, I love the way you completely refute the point I made about how public schools should provide an appropriate education to my child. I am a taxpaying citizen like everyone else, and my child has a right to this like anyone else does. I don't live in Manhattan, so we are not eligible for Hunter ES.
Or are you suggesting that parents of gifted children start suing the city for private tuition, the way many parents of SN children are already doing?
I, personally, am not comfortable going there, but I suppose we might be seeing more of this going forward.
I think we should go back to the days of old-fashioned tracking starting in 2nd/3rd grade. Kids can more in and out of it more seamlessly (i.e. one test when you're 4 does not determine where you stay for the next 5 years) and neighborhood schools don't get drained of more high-performing kids. Also, if you have a kid who excels at math but needs a little more help with English, the school should be able to support both. To do this, there needs to be smaller classes and more specialized teachers who can pull small groups of kids out.
Exactly Back the how it was in the 80s. Testing 4 year olds is silly especially with a shy or anxious kid sitting with a stranger to take . Back in the "old days" every single school building had one or more Delta/Eagle/Sp/whatever program starting around 2nd or 3rd grade when kids are mature and more academics/reading involved. Class 1 was the accelerated class, 2 and 3, etc were the middle, and there was a slower class too. And every year kids moved in and out as appropriate for where they were and the fluidity is the key. A 4 year old may be a very different student in later grades and the acceleration is not appropriate in 4th grade or vice versa. An immigrant may pick up enough English in couple of years to move up.
I believe DOE is against tracking.
@AnonymousQ well yeah. But that doesn't really have anything to do with the question,. They are against everything.
I came on here to say what others are suggesting: pull out classes or tracking within schools. I never understood why this wasn't more common in NYC. I understand the comments that we cannot implement this in the short term in NYC, but I thought OP's question was hypothetical. I did pull out G&T growing up, and the skills I learned there helped me throughout my life and instilled in me a real love for learning.
The most important thing that G & T schools provided was for kids who live in under served communities with sub-par schools an opportunity to go to a citywide school like NEST, TAG, Anderson,LAB etc. Carranza will be doing a massive disservice to those kids.
You need to look at the stats for these communities re the G&T test, though. Very, very few take the test, and even fewer score highly enough to place in G&T.
I live in a comparatively middle-class part of the Bronx, and my child was one of fewer than 5 in D11 (an enormous district) to score a 99.
Poorer districts like D7 fared even worse.
This is the actual problem that needs to be solved.
That might be the idea, but in practice, the Citywide schools have an astoundingly wealthy parent body. Under 10% of kids at Anderson qualify for FL, and at their annual auction, people regularly spend $10k - $30k for kindergartner's "artwork." How is this serving underprivileged kids? How is this even a public school? It's disgusting.
But why not include TAG in this conversation? It's very diverse, always was, and sets aside 40% of seats for FRL kids.
I'd be curious to know what admissions criteria TAG used before the bloomberg test went into effect in 2008 or whenever. Does anyone here know? Probably not, because people like this crowd weren't sending their kids to school in East Harlem back then...
Tracking and G&T classes suffered from the same problems and inequities currently being discussed. They, too, were considered a failed experiment. Those options help the kids for whom there is no room in the Citywides but who otherwise qualify, but it helps no one else and does nothing to address the systemic reasons that the Citywides are also being attacked as inconsistent with public education.
There seem to be two competing agendas in this conversation. One is the PLACE NYC "only testing is meritocratic" and "nothing should change" approach. Which I find to be very problematic for both G&T and SHS admissions. Then there's the "My kid didn't get in so the system is broken and needs to be eliminated ASAP" POV, which is also wrong. The truth is that citywide G&T schools do work, and quite well.
There needs to be a middle-ground reform strategy. Both of the above points of view are destructive and not constructive.
ETA no one wants to talk about schools like TAG because it doesn't fit either agenda.
How can you say Citywide G&T work and well when the majority of kids who score sufficiently to get in do not get spots??
I can say that because I think the admissions process is the problem. I think the test is a disaster.
There is a third pov in this conversation which is this: G&T is a private-like form of public education that is not accessible to all -- not even to those who qualify for it, let alone those without the resources or family structure to compete through the test even if they are truly gifted -- and needs to be reformed for that reason if for no other.
I’m sorry to say, this is not something they are going to replace. for years the administration have been wanted to do away with this. When I was young , they did not offer g&t, so my parents sent us to private school. I was in D26 which was a great district but my parents Wanted different. They had tracking back then, but that was done away with too. When I had kids, we did not have the funds to send our 3 to private so we moved to the burbs.
I grew up in D26 and all I see in your post is right-wing thinking (which was prevalent in that part of NYC, especially in the time of the two-fare zone).
I don't even get your post. In D26 you wouldn't have needed G&T--the schools were uniformly excellent. Your parents didn't care and just decided they didn't trust NYC public schools.
You inherited this belief and functioned accordingly. Your contribution to this discussion is pretty much nonexistent.
I can smell your bitterness through your post. It’s stinky. Not sure what your issue is but if you are not happy you should make a change. You can move anywhere for better schools. My parents admittedly wanted better for us than what D26 offered. D26 doesn’t compare to private. G&T is a wonderful option for families, and it’s being dismantled. My post is very telling about the future of NYC public. Well to do white families will not keep their children in regular public schools. Without G&T the NYC public school system will become garbage. move before your bitterness kills you.
Your racism is shining more brightly than the sun.