Has anyone followed to the end? Last episode is now available. It focuses on the integration model adopted in D15, basically a lottery for MS admissions. It ends with the intriguing thought that such initiatives are brought forward and supported by white parents, only when the existing situation has become too competitive, difficult or otherwise not preferable to themselves.
I listened to the whole series and thought it was interesting. I think she's basically right. Education is especially difficult because even if you agree in the principle of integration and a solid education for every child, if that isn't the reality of the system--and currently it isn't--few people are willing to sacrifice their own kid just to make a moral point. I include myself in this; DC went to private PK-12. If parents have the option, they vote with their feet to ensure their kids get the education the parents want them to have. I think the intense competition for private (and the cost), combined with the inability to ensure a solid outcome with public, has made the status quo both challenging and unpredictable. People are willing to trade choice (since they may not get their top choice anyway) for better overall options. Even if those options aren't as good as their top choice would have been, the bottom isn't as low.
@ Anonymous I listened to all the episodes too, and I agree with that point as well - the forces aligned in D15 to create the desire for a systemic change. I also think it will be hard to replicate the D15 model elsewhere. One problem is the insane make-up of the districts - at least in Manahattan, they're completely unequal - District 2 is overall white and wealthy, Districts 4 & 5 almost completely poor & POC. Ergo, district-wide lotteries won't change all that much.
I liked the point she made about how white parents aren't used to considering the impact of our choices on a demographic level. We all want to make the best individual choices for our individual kids, because of course we do--but because of the way the system caters to us, when we do that as a group, the result is resources being hoarded and kept away from children of color.
I sincerely doubt that non-white parents are "used to considering the impact of [their] choices on a demographic level" either. If they held the power (after the inauguration say?) they would make the exact, same self-serving choices.
@Anonymous Of course. People are innately self interested. But the fact is that they don't have that power, because the system was set up and maintained to serve white parents. That's not a reason for white parents to feel good about it, though.
As for my point about demographics, if you listen to the episode it explains it much better than I do, and it is a totally valid point.
I would love a follow-up episode about D15 middle schools during the Diversity Plan. My DD was part of the first Diversity Plan class. Even attending SLT meetings and being very involved in the school it's so hard to see if it's actually having any impact on achievement. There were no state tests last year and probably won't be this year. Kids lives are all in disarray b/c of pandemic. It will be really hard to know if it's had any effect.
Do you agree with her suggestion with regards to the motivation of the D15 parents?
@AnonymousQ Good question. I think the motivation of the moms she interviewed were pretty clear--they were inspired to do something about the problem b/c it affected their own kids. But I really empathize with that group of parents (some of whom I know personally) who were really trying to investigate the issue of whether or not diverse families wanted an integration plan. As a white middle class parent, I personally find it really hard to engender meaningful discussions about diversity within a school community that actually move things forward in a way that make things more equal. I was still left wondering what to do. I thought the line about being an "activist instead of a customer" was a good one, but I'm also not quite sure what to do with that. I'd rather amplify the voices of black people but literally no black people have EVER run for PTA or SLT in either of my kids schools (and middle school is quite diverse due to the plan). A few Latina women have run, but everyone involved in parent leadership (and even the diversity discussion group) seem like middle and upper middle class people.
@BKmom I think the motivation of the moms she interviewed were pretty clear--they were inspired to do something about the problem b/c it affected their own kids.
It's worth noting that the mom who is portrayed as the hero of the D15 movement - Miriam something - immediately snatched up waitlist seats for her own children in a coveted middle school when she was offered them, and wasn't personally affected by the new system she had a hand in creating.
I'm sure it was easy for her to pound the table for change and say "I WOULD have been happy with a lottery system"...but again, it wasn't actually affecting her kids.
I was interested in the thread running through a number of episodes about how white vs POC parents view diversity--that Black and Hispanic parents aren't really invested in diversity (as in exposure to kids of other races) as an end in itself. They just want their kids to have access to the same quality of education.
Yes!
She scratches the surface there, but even she has no answer - how do you make ALL schools good, without necessarily diversifying them (since that's impossible in NYC)? And what to do with elementary schools? By the time MS arrives, some kids are way behind their peers. so they can try to remove screens in MS and HS, but the problems will persist if we do not solve ES education.
While I believe in a good education for every child, I voted with my feet. DC (now in college) attended private PK-12. We don't live in NYC, but we never considered our local public. Ultimately we thought about our child and our family--not larger societal goals--when it come to education. Even knowing what I know about inequality, the truth is that I would make the same decision if I had to do it over. Parents will act in their kids' best interests, so unless and until public schools are reliably good, this will be a difficult problem to solve.
As a D15 parent with a child in that first Diversity class and in BHS too, I have a lot of thoughts. I agree with so much of what she has to say, about white middle class parents having influence and making choices to benefit their kids etc.
On D15 Diversity Plan - more than 50% of parents opposed the plan, but they pushed it through anyway. It's hard to say if there is any meaningful impact. I know a lot of families who left and some who chose private, when they would not have done so before. BASIS alone added a full class to accommodate more incoming 6th graders and a few smaller private schools popped up. So there is certainly some outflow from the public system as a result.
Such a plan will be hard to replicate. Many of the D15 schools had become desirable or acceptable, so it was not a really rough transition. Also, the demographics are easy to mix in diverse schools. But the city has 15% white kids in public school, 72% free lunch. How do you fix and make such a system diverse and equitable?
I read an article that if magically the 15% white kids were spread out the city, you would have maybe 4 kids per class. Count the Asian kids that Carranza seems to ignore or hate depending on the day, and that gives you another 15% to spread around. Its all playing statistics to make things appear a certain way - no real change. Bottom line is what is to be done to improve education for our neediest students, down to root cause? The Renewal schools concept was good, but it failed with a high $ cost.
Totally makes sense. and the ones usually pushing for it the loudest are those w/ kids who are already in screened, past the hurdles. Bunch of hypocrites.
@ Anonymous So true! The head of the parent council in my district, who was all for "diversity" sent her own kid to the most coveted district G&T program, made up of almost all white kids. It was shocking that no one ever called her out on this.
ITA. Someone who contributed to this podcast and whose spouse is very high up in the said D15 district and strong advocate of the Diversity plan, chose to send their kids to the two of the top choices in the district, traditionally coveted by the Nice white parents. So while they were trying to convince other parents that all the schools would be OK and we should do it for the greater good, they couldn't be bothered to send their own kids to schools which need more support.
@Anon Further proof, as it one needed it, that even the do-good-iest, liberal-est parents will NOT sacrifice their own kids' education for moral principle. I think we can nibble at the edges of integration in small pockets where the interests of White Parents and POC happen to coincide (like D15 middle schools), but solving the school segregation problem city-wide may be impossible.
@anonymous Solving segregation--as in having all schools have a mix of black, white and LatinX kids--may not be possible, but solving the disparity in school quality absolutely is. And according to the podcast, that is the most pressing issue for BIPOC parents in NYC. They don't care so much whether their kids are in school with little white Susie; but they want (and deserve) their kids' school to have quality facilities and resources and teachers like Susie's school.
I am intrigued by the idea that PTA donations should be divided equally among elementary schools. Since no one really wants bussing or to break up communities and integration seems more easily achievable at the middle and high school levels, it seems that the only way to help with equity in the elementary level is to remove the financial power of white parents at neighborhood schools. As one such parent, I would support this plan. How do I connect with other like minded parents to make it happen? I would have loved some resources at the end of the podcast for how parents can collaborate on this issue.
I actually disagree. It is pathetic that in a wealthy city/country, schools are so underfunded, that parents can only keep schools afloat via donations. The solution is to fund ALL schools adequately. since DB can’t figure this out, he tries to manipulate the system to the detriment of everyone, thus dividing the residents and inciting them against each other. It’s a disgrace. ALL school need adequate funding for buildings, regular education and after school programs.
@Anonymous I agree completely. I thought it was interesting that parents at Success Academy have no say in how donations are spent, and are never asked for donations. I think public school should be like that. I think it's telling that BDB is telling PTAs at middle class schools to buy tents for poor schools so that outdoor learning can work... and poor schools in D7 in the Bronx are like "our nearby parks are littered with syringes and a woman was shot outside one of our schools last week." The disconnect between the city and the needs of kids is just appalling. I know it's always been bad but the pandemic has brought out the worst.
I disagree for the simple reason that I don't think the issue is funding as much as involvement. I've spoken before that my kids were at an integrated school with reasonable funding. Where things broke down were that some parents were just not engaged (either directly in the school or in their child's education). It's hard for a school to operate without parental involvement. period.
Interesting series, but ridiculous to imagine at the end that this lottery system could ever be a workable solution outside NYC, Boston or SF.
I live in a country in the EU that does lottery system. It’s very very very hard to get your kids into a good school unless you’re poor, a single mother, or disabled. So the UMC/UC parents who don’t get their 1st or 2nd choice school just send kids to private—this results in the public school system staying shitty because parents who demand better quality and method of instruction won’t put up with what currently exists in the middle and bottom tier publics. This results in further inequality. Wash rinse repeat.
Similar problems all over the world. This isn’t race, this is socioeconomic. But race is a rough proxy for SES in the US and we have the history of segregation so it all gets filtered through race.
Which country in Europe? I completely agree that the lottery system wont work if parents have other options. FWIW, I live in a city with 70-80-% Latin population and public schools are exactly that - majority Latin. Some of the schools are very good and challenging, and the Latin kids are no better or worse than the (few) white kids here. It’s all about parents expectations and funding.
I think private is cost prohibitive for many of the parents in NYC who send to public
This might prompt some people to consider opening their own, more cost effective schools (charter schools come to mind, or private schools without the bells and whistles).
I agree that this is more of a socioeconomic issue than a race issue, although the two are, as you said, linked in this country. People with money will always pick private if their local school is crap.
Culture plays a big part too. In NYC, Asian (a big broad category) are the lowest income group, english as a second language, and yet outperform all other groups by a lot and consistently.
When someone complains about unequal treatment, the usual response by politicians and corporations is the make it equally bad for everyone. When one party thought they would get equality good treatment and services by complaining, they are usually mistaken. The solution to inequality is not to make schools equally bad for whites - the solution should be to make school as good for POC as it has been for whites. This will never happen in NYC and it’s shameful that the NYT reporter didn’t make that point.